PRESIDENT TUDJMAN'S INTERVIEW - HIGHLIGHTS

ZAGREB, April 22 (Hina) - Croatian President Franjo Tudjman on Saturday gave an interview to Croatian Radio and Television, Vecernji List and Vjesnik dailies, Politicki Zatvorenik (Political Prisoner) periodical and Hina in which he spoke about current political issues and historical aspects of the formation of the Croatian state. Following are some highlights: "We have achieved reconciliation of all social strata in Croatia and of Croatians at home and abroad, without which there would have been no independent, democratic and sovereign Croatian state," Tudjman said at the beginning of the interview responding to a question by "Politicki Zatvorenik" editor Andrija Vucemil. Vucemil said that political prisoners had called for forgiveness and reconciliation six years ago but that today many of them had the impression that former Communist party officials were again occupying important political positions. In drawing up the program of the Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ) and creating the Croatian state, we drew conclusions from the entire Croatian history and tried to answer the question why the Croatian people had not had their state since the 12th century, so that we could prevent such a situation from happening again, Tudjman said. Tudjman recalled the internecine conflict that had taken place in Croatia from 1941 to 1945 between the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) and the partisan movement. He also recalled the execution by Yugoslav Communist authorities of a huge number of Croatian soldiers and civilians (estimates range from 55,000 to 300,000) who wanted to surrender to allied forces at Bleiburg, Austria, in 1945. In order to prevent such things from happening again we chose not to support extremism and revenge but presented the platform of overall reconciliation as the only way of gaining independence, he said. "Behind allegations that former Communist party officials are still present in all spheres of political, military and social life there is also a sting aimed against me," Tudjman said. "As far as I'm concerned, no compromises are being made with remnants of the old, Communist regime," he said, adding that he had not joined the partisan movement in World War Two as a Communist but as an antifascist and a Croatian patriot. The only possible way in which Croatia could have gained its independence was through "a policy of reconciliation and forgiveness for all who accept the idea of free and democratic Croatia," Tudjman said. "As for the army, if I had not had experience from the Second World War and theoretical knowledge, Croatia would not have existed as a state. The Croatian army, diplomacy and state administration could not have been created only from political prisoners and victims. (...) We also needed people from the former Yugoslav socialist regime, the Croats who could hardly wait to put themselves in the service of their own state and people," Tudjman said, adding that those people were not in a majority in the army, police or diplomacy. In further comments on the issue, Tudjman presented the following data: In the Croatian army, there are 28 per cent of officers from the former Yugoslav army while 72 per cent are people who earned their ranks in the war. About one third of the high- ranking officers are people who returned from foreign countries. Of 32,000 people in the Ministry of the Interior, only 10 per cent are from the previous system, and most of them are Croatians because there are only 1 to 2 per cent of Serbs left in the Ministry. In diplomacy, there are only 2 per cent of the people who worked in former Yugoslav missions while Croatian emigrants make up 22 per cent of diplomatic personnel. Tudjman said that the situation in the judiciary and the media was a little different, adding that Croatian authorities were not revengeful so that most of the personnel from the former regime remained in those sectors. "In a way, our policy of reconciliation is returning to us like a boomerang, particularly in the media." "Now that the war is over, we must find enough strength to ensure the state-building and democratic development of Croatia. After so many centuries we have succeeded in making Croatia an international factor which can be jeopardized only by ourselves. If we manage to prevent this, then the future of the Croatian people and the Croatian state will be safe," Tudjman said. VJESNIK's reporter Drazen Curic asked President Tudjman to comment on the idea of building a reconciliation centre in Jasenovac, which has met with some adverse reactions at home and abroad. President Tudjman explained that the idea was to create a memorial to the victims of fascism, the victims of communism and the people killed in the Homeland War. The mortal remains of the three groups would however be buried separately. "We have many arguments in favour of the idea to turn Jasenovac into a memorial to all war victims. One reason is because Jasenovac is the place of death of many other victims besides those killed by the fascists. Between 1945 and 1948, the Jasenovac camp was used by the communist establishment. We need to establish how many people were killed in Jasenovac by the NDH (Independent State of Croatia) and how many were killed after the war," Tudjman said. "If we aim for reconciliation, we must transfer bones from various mass graves to the Jasenovac site, not in order to mingle the bones of the victims of communism and the victims of fascism, but to establish the facts - how many people died as the result of the NDH policy, fascism and racial laws, and how many were killed by communists. At the same site, we should also find a resting place for the fallen in the Homeland War, separate from the graves of the other two groups. In the case of those fallen in the Homeland War, my idea was to mark their names because we know who they are. In this way, Jasenovac can become a place devoted to all victims of war, a place that will stand as a memento and a warning to the Croatian people not to allow situations from the past - the state of division and internecine conflict - to occur again. We should reconcile the dead as we have reconciled the living and their children and grandchildren," Tudjman said. "It is no exaggeration to say that there is no Croatian family which has not had at least one victim since World War II, in one way or another." The existence of the Jasenovac camp was an objective fact which we could not obliterate from the Croatian history and which, together with the inflated statistics of victims spread by the pro- Serb communist establishment, still presented a stumbling block in Croatia's international relations, Tudjman said. Well aware of these exaggerations, Tito had never consented to visit Jasenovac, Tudjman said. "Therefore, the kind of memorial Jasenovac is now is not acceptable to the majority of the Croatian people," Tudjman concluded. "Not everybody in the NDH government was a fascist; likewise, the partisan movement did not consist only of communists - rather, both fought for the Croatian state," President Tudjman said commenting on a recent polemic on the new Holidays Act. "The 22nd of June (the Day of Antifascist Struggle) and the 15th of May (the Bleiburg Victims Day) must not be celebrated in the spirit of exacerbating conflicts but rather as a memento of situations we have been through, as a warning not to repeat them," President Tudjman said. "We should therefore concentrate on the 5th of August, the Homeland Thanksgiving Day, the day of Croatian victory. In it we will find a synthesis of this policy of reconciliation and the security of the Croatian people and the Croatian state, which nobody can jeopardise if we are aware of everything we have been through and of how we have achieved our freedom and our democracy. The 5th of August, the day when the Croatian flag was hoisted in Knin, meant the final victory of the Croatian state-building idea," President Tudjman said. Croatian TV reporter Zeljko Raic asked President Tudjman how he felt about the idea to return to the homeland the mortal remains of people who had fought for the Croatian state and then died abroad, such as Bruno Busic, Vladko Macek and Josip Broz Tito. Answering the question, President Tudjman suggested that Pavelic also be included in that number. "If we have built Croatia on the idea of reconciliation of living people, why not allow the bones of these people to return to the homeland, provided the idea is not abused as a means to garner political points?" President Tudmman said. Commenting on the role of Vladko Macek (president of the Croatian Peasants' Party from 1928 to 1941) in World War II, President Tudjman said Macek had been one of the most consistent Croatian politicians. On the other hand, he did not succeed in transcending the framework of pacifism and the Yugoslav idea. "Also, his view that 'while the big ones fight, the small fry should hide under the table' led to a confusion in the ranks of this most important Croatian political party, opening the door for the communists and Pavelic to play their respective roles," President Tudjman said. As for Tito, there was no doubt that he would go down in history as one of the most outstanding figures of World War II, President Tudjman said. Furthermore, Tito's conflict with Stalin had been an occurence of global importance. Tito's home policy included a determination to eradicate Chetnik and greater-Serbian ideology. Within the communist ideological framework, Tito advocated equality within the Yugoslav Federation, Tudjman explained. Pavelic, too, was to be given his rightful place. Before World War II, when Pavelic emigrated, he did not do so as a fascist, but as a radical Croatian nationalist. Having failed to elicit support from anybody but the Axis forces, he had to go on with what he had. We should give Pavelic his due and recognise that his was a sincere attempt to build a Croatian state, but we must also be aware that he erred so much in his endeavour, that if there had not been for the other side (the antifascists), the Croatian state would never have materialised, President Tudjman explained. Bruno Busic, killed by the Yugoslav secret service in Paris, belonged to the post-war generation of political emigres. He was among the few people who understood that reconciliation was the only path to Croatia's freedom, President Tudjman said. "Croatia is the proper place for the bones of Bruno Busic to rest," President Tudjman concluded. Asked to comment on privatisation fraud and white-collar crime, President Tudjman recalled Croatia's outstanding economic achievements and its stable democratic order, stressing that Croatia was one of the most prosperous countries in Europe. President Tudjman acknowledged the problem of fraud and misappropriation, but drew attention to the "psychological war which is being waged against independent Croatia from Belgrade and some other European and international centres." He identified four slogans which were being used in this pshychological war: "Tudjman's HDZ Harbours Dangerous Intentions," "The Herzegovina Lobby Is a Danger to Croatia," "The Croatian Policy in Bosnia-Herzegovina is Disastrous" and "Nothing Flourishes in Croatia Like Fraud." "The path from socialism to the free market is not strewn with roses, it is a thorny one. True, managers and people holding prominent positions were the ones to profit the most, but there was no other way. Some have acquired companies for less than they were worth. In this sense, there have been instances of fraud, but I say, there are data showing that there is less fraud in Croatia than in some other countries," President Tudjman said, stressing that Croatia must uphold the rule of law and that nobody should enjoy any benefits because they belonged to this or that party. Hina's reporter Smiljana Skugor asked President Tudjman if he thought there were people in Croatia who wanted to overthrow the state. "I would not go as far as to say they want to overthrow the state," President Tudjman said, adding that those who were opposed to the form of state independence Croatia had now wanted a limited-sovereingty state, like in the former socialist Federation. The important thing, however, was that certain European and international circles wanted to keep Croatia at all costs within some kind of Yugoslavia, Euroslavia, or a Balkan, Adriatic or Black-Sea confederation or South-East European Union, Tudjman said. "Why? For strategic and geopolitical reasons of their own," Tudjman said. "Many of our people, even those who are active on the political scene, do not see this crucial problem and in this sense they are jeopardising independent Croatia. We should ask ourselves why there should be any doubt about HDZ's majority in Zagreb. In Europe, when a party wins a 36.5-percent majority, it is an enviable victory," Tudjman said, wondering why some parties did not want to cooperate with HDZ. "The problem is in the interests of certain foreign circles. In the history of international relations, it is unprecedented that a minister should get involved in such issues as the forming of coalitions to overthrow the legitimate government of a country. When the time comes, we will disclose all the information we have on that point - how certain party officials or even party leaders have been more willing to cooperate with foreign parties and institutions, including certain ministers, than with the democratically elected heads of state and government in Croatia. We will have to publicly raise this issue. We must not allow any doubts to be cast on the efficiency of the state authorities," President Tudjman concluded. Croatian Radio reporter Zoltan Kabok asked President Tudjman to share his opinion on the freedom of the media in Croatia and to compare it with the situation in Europe. "There's never enough freedom and there's never enough democracy," President Tudjman said. "But freedom and democracy presuppose personal responsibility to one's community," he stressed. "In this regard, I think that there is no lack of democracy in Croatia; rather, there is too much anarchy. Our society yet has to mature in this respect, it must find a way to prevent such attacks on persons and state interests. The way some people have written against state interests, and without any arguments at all, the attempts that have been made to discredit certain people, is quite unprecedented in democratic countries," President Tudjman warned. "We will have to find a way to prevent occurences which are not compatible with good taste, political culture and ordinary civility." Noting that Croatia was going to host an international congress of political prisoners and victims of communism in July, Vucemil asked President Tudjman what message he would send to the participants and the international public. "The sufferings that communism inflicted on the Croatian people and other nations must not be forgotten," President Tudjman said, adding that our duty now was to build a society which would not allow ideologically-motivated bloodshed. "We must not forget the victims of fascism either," President Tudjman emphasised. He warned against "dissolving our national self and national state in some European union or international community," stressing that "only a free and self-reliant nation could give its contribution to the internationalk community." "Today, we must not allow ourselves to fall into some new illusion, something that would only set us up for more suffering," he concluded. (hina) jn mm vm as 222018 MET apr 96